‘Heavy Lifting’, the first album by pioneering Detroit rockers MC5 in 53 years, is being released in September 2024. Sadly, MC5 guitarist and founder Wayne Kramer who wrote 12 of the 13 songs on the record, died in February this year. One of the singles released is ‘Can’t Be Found’ featuring Living Colour guitarist Vernon Reid. We spoke to Vernon about the song, working with the ‘fearless’ Kramer, and how he thinks ‘everyone is the Jimi Hendrix of something’.
Text and Vernon Reid photographs: Anne-Marie Forker
Wayne Kramer photograph: Jim Newberry
This is the first new MC5 album in over 50 years, since 1971’s ‘High Time’. Why now?
I think for Wayne it was an idea of a new chapter in the story. Unfortunately when the process started I don’t think anybody expected Wayne to pass. It’s very sad, because he was a very vibrant person. He wanted to gather up all these different people and make a statement about the MC5 concept. The legendary producer Bob Ezrin was also involved. He made all these incredible Alice Cooper records back in the 70s. It just seemed like such a great meeting of minds. I knew that Tom Morello was going to be involved, but I didn’t know that Slash and other people were gonna come through. I’m really proud to be part of this assemblage of people.
Is that what attracted you to the project initially?
Well, really it was Wayne. I was involved just from Wayne asking. And then there was Bob Ezrin, and then chatting with him.
You played on the absolutely electric track ‘Can’t Be Found’, with a beautiful solo. Did you have complete freedom to do that, or did Wayne give you a little bit of guidance?
You know, it was pretty much from Wayne’s point of view. He said ‘Do you’. I gave them a couple of passages to choose from. One was more kind of radical than the other one and they went with the more radical thing. I was happy that they chose it.
Did you give them several versions then and they just chose what they wanted?
I just gave them a couple. They just went for that and I was just really gratified that they felt that it fit in the song and it’s just a really cool tune. It’s beautiful.
Which guitar did you use on that track and why that particular guitar?
Oh my goodness. I might have done it with a Paul Reed Smith signature. There were only two guitars I would have done it with, either a PRS or one of my old hangers, and I believe I did that with a PRS.
Do you have a preference for that brand?
Well it was the first one that had a Floyd Rose on it. I mean, I love all my guitars! [Laughs]
[Laughs] Of course! Speaking of guitars, when you were talking to Wayne about guitars, did you find you had much in common with him?
There was something interesting with Wayne. I was part of this kind of guitar workshop thing that Tom Morello sponsored. It was myself, John 5, Nuno Bettencourt and Wayne was part of it and of course Tom was part of it. We all gave little classes and things. One of the things that I was really tickled by is that Wayne showed up with the Helix by Line 6, because I use a Helix as well. It was so interesting that he was into the Helix and was really enjoying it and he wasn’t like ‘Oh man, give me my Big Muff, I’m happy!’ We were the two participants that had a Helix.
Do you have a favourite memory of Wayne?
One of my favourite memories of Wayne is that Wayne was very involved with prisoner rights, with the rights of the incarcerated, and years ago there was a criminologist called Lonnie Athens, who wrote a book called ‘The Creation of Dangerous Violent Criminals’. He had this whole idea about how a person becomes a dangerous and violent criminal, and they have to go through a process called ‘violentization’ and there are several steps to it. So anyway, I read this book and it turned out that Wayne was a big fan of this academic, but he’s an academic who grew up in a really violent household. It’s pretty strange. There’s a whole thing about having to witness violent acts, you have to be helpless to help a person that you really want to help, you have to embark at your first violent adventure and be successful at it and get an endorphin rush, and then become addicted to the pleasure of changing your circumstances, and no one in your environment, a teacher, or an uncle, or an auntie that exposes you to the Opera or something, if you don’t have something that shifts your focus, then you’re really on this path. Wayne talked about how he observed that in other inmates and whatnot. He really worked tirelessly for people who were incarcerated. It was that moment that we realised that we had both encountered the same theory, and it was pretty interesting.
That sounds fascinating. I grew up in Ireland when The Troubles were occurring and I studied law and prisoners’ rights as well, but I’ve never heard of that. I will definitely look that up. Thank you for the reference.
Yeah, look into it. It’s very controversial because one of the things he says is that when people say that people who are violent have low self-esteem, he says that’s not true. In fact, the opposite is true, that criminals have an excess of self-esteem, and they act out of the excess of self-esteem. Violence is a shortcut. Wanting instant gratification is also a part of it. People are rational. It’s too simple to say that people are animals. Wayne knew that. He was not a big guy, but he was absolutely fearless. He wasn’t afraid of people and I love that about him.
Wayne told Rolling Stone in 2022 that ‘we are all part of the same mindset living in the same world, and we all want to make a difference’. How, personally, do you want to make a difference?
I tell you what, I want to let people know that I believe that everybody is the Jimi Hendrix of something. Your thing that you’re really good at, the thing that lights you up is inside of you, I believe that. A great tragedy in life is people not finding out what they’re the Jimi Hendrix of. I would like to encourage anybody from any background that there’s something magical, it’s something that you lay your hand on. It’s something, and you may not even know it, that is there for you. It could be cooking, it could be flower arranging. Our goal in life is for freedom and liberation of the thing that we’re the Jimi Hendrix of. Everybody has the Joseph Campbell journey inside them.
Like MC5, Living Colour are also fearless and influential. What are you working on at the moment?
We started some recordings for our next record, and we’re currently touring as a special guest of the band Extreme. It’s been fun.
I saw you in England last year. I remember Nuno was joking that he had a really simple pedal board and yours went to ‘the other end of the room’!
[Laughs] I remember! Mine is not as big as Doug Wimbish’s [Living Colour bassist]. The bands have to get along. You know, Aerosmith retired recently and we adored touring with them some years back at a period when they were really getting along great. It was a really fun tour.
Can you share a favourite memory of that tour?
Playing ‘Walk this Way’ with Aerosmith.
Oh wow, I wish I’d seen that.
Yeah, we did a jam. It was the last show of the tour and we did a jam.
Corey and Steven singing together? Nice. Are you coming back to Europe?
We will be, and we’ve never played Ireland. It’s a scandal!
I hope you do, and also Norway. Thanks so much for your time today, Vernon. We’ll speak again when the new Living Colour album is out. Alright, fantastic! Bye, bye.
Interview originally published in Norway Rock Magazine 2024 Issue #3 – SUBSCRIBE HERE
